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Report of Critical Failure of Twindisc EC200 Helm ...
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Hi, Garry.


I'm glad to hear that the information is useful! Keep me posted on your results. You can message me on Whatsapp too.


Jim



Jim Martyn

Alyeska 47-07

Quoted Text

Thanks Jim

That’s the best help on the issue we’ve had.

I experienced throttle failure in the control box that was a faulty relay which was replaced by a local company in Thailand.

I have a guy who I asked build a separate throttle using what you describe - I just need two fixed voltages to set the revs as say 1000 and 1400 as that’s the common throttle setting. I even planned to put it in the engine room as I don’t need control from the pilot house to be able to dock.

It’s only pinning out the connections that has slowed the progress.

Thanks for the great info. I’ll now crack on and build a back-up system.


Sent from my iPhone

GarryBall@me.com

07798 666 054



Thanks Jim
That’s the best help on the issue we’ve had.
I experienced throttle failure in the control box that was a faulty relay which was replaced by a local company in Thailand.
I have a guy who I asked build a separate throttle using what you describe - I just need two fixed voltages to set the revs as say 1000 and 1400 as that’s the common throttle setting. I even planned to put it in the engine room as I don’t need control from the pilot house to be able to dock.
It’s only pinning out the connections that has slowed the progress.
Thanks for the great info. I’ll now crack on and build a back-up system.

Sent from my iPhone
GarryBall@me.com
07798 666 054

Several forum members reached out and asked what options are available for bypassing an EC200 propulsion control failure to get the boat home if they don't have an alternate powertrain onboard. The topic seemed like a good one to address in this thread also.


First, it's helpful to keep in mind that the core of the EC200 is not the control heads, but the rather the Power Commander control box usually located in the engine room. Each control head is directly connected to the control box via its own 8-wire cable (or a pair of 8-wire for a twin-engine configuration). The control heads do not directly interact with throttle or shift actuation, but only send their control requests to the control box.


So, if 're experiencing a control anomaly, start by checking to see if a different control station can operate normally. If so, then carry on with that station. If not, then the control box is indeed malfunctioning.


If your transmission is mechanically actuated then the temporary solution is crude-but-simple: Disconnect the Morse cable at either the transmission end or the Power Commander box and have your first or second mate (or galley slave) man the gear shift lever in the engine room as required for gear changes.


If your transmission is electronically actuated, then you can prepare a backup shift control ahead of time to be ready to handle primary shift control failure either by use a simple three-wire cable and double-throw switch, or by buying and installing a cheap industrial crane type wireless remote control connected directly to your transmission's shift solenoids.


For the wire cable method: 1) Connect one wire to a battery voltage source matching your control box's system voltage (probably 24v), and connect the other end of that wire to the center post of your switch; 2) Connect the second wire to one end post of that switch, and the other end of that wire to the Red wire of the Forward solenoid on the transmission; 3) Connect the third wire to the opposite end post on the switch, and the other end of that wire to the White wire on the Reverse solenoid on the transmission; 4) Secure that switch to the side of your helm control head or another safe location so that when the switch is in the middle neutral position it applies no voltage to either shift solenoid, but when flipped to its forward position system voltage is applied to the Forward shift solenoid, and likewise for Reverse position.


For the wireless controller method, do essentially the same as above, but wire the power input into the wireless receiver box, and its two button control outputs to the signal wires leading to the Red and White solenoid inputs. Keep the wireless transmitter at or near your helm and powered off until needed. You don't want anyone surprising you (and maybe blowing out the clutches of your transmission) by activating that transmitter and playing with the buttons while you're underway!


Usually EC200 failures start with shift failures, and then sometimes later progress to throttle control failure, so you'll probably be able to manage throttle settings from your control head(s) to safely get home. But, if your throttle function also fails and is electronically-controlled by variable voltage signal (typical for Cummins and JD engines), then you can rig a simple throttle bypass control by use of a simple potentiometer jumpered between the G and A pins on the J6 connector of the control box. That potentiometer will take voltage input from the ECU at the G pin, and needs to be able to deliver 0.5-4.5v output connecting to the A pin. It's important that the output voltage is limited to 4.5v max which signals wide open throttle (4.05v for Cummins), so be careful when turning up throttle, and maybe consider getting a voltage reducer with potentiometer that will not output in excess of that limit.


Alternately, or if an EC200 throttle failure besieges you before you've had a chance to get your project supplies, you can achieve a workable cruise throttle setting with a AA battery, a few short pieces of wire, and some duct tape (or bubble gum). Jumper the positive end of the battery to the J6-A pin, and the negative end to the H pin. Depending on the state of charge of that battery and which throttle range your engine's ECU is configured for, you should get a throttle response around 1100-1300rpm. Pull off either wire from that little battery and your throttle immediately returns to idle.


It's not elegant, but it works - except not for CAT engines - which respond only to PWM signals, and not for MTU or MAN engines - which respond to mA signals (and let's not even get started talking about Volvo throttle signals).


I hope this information will help ease some concerns, and maybe spare someone a big towing bill at some point. There's no need to feel like you have to rush out and replace your EC200 system tomorrow... maybe next week or the week after. 😉


Happy cruising!


Jim Martyn

Alyeska 47-07

For those thinking of acquiring used spares, there's a 12v EC200 control box with mechanical gear and throttle actuators and two control heads available on Ebay right now at a very low price.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/226609734858?itmmeta=01JMT3818X1RXHDQY656JC58GX&hash=item34c2fe24ca:g:73IAAOSw9GtnpM3q


The seller has it listed as "remanufactured" based solely on the presence of two loose red "RMA" tags that were floating around in the box with these parts, but has no working knowledge of the equipment. The control box has considerably higher than average appearance of corrosion on the case, which suggests it lived a hard life, and that it has not been serviced, and the control heads show signs of considerable weather exposure. The box could be dead, or could be workable, and might be a good deal as spares for someone adventurous... or just an invitation to frustration.


Also, that particular control box would not be suitable as a spare for boat's like Mike's, whose engines have have mechanical throttle governors, because the lower servo is only for actuating a trolling valve, so the only throttle control available from that box is electronic (output at the A pin on the J6 connector), and it is unclear from the data tag whether that box is configured to output the throttle signal as voltage, current or PWM. I don't believe that early version box is user-adjustable on that signal.



Jim Martyn

Alyeska 47-07

Hi, John.


Yes, there are options, ranging in price from a few thousand dollars up to fifty thousand. The best choice of course is to replace the aging EC200/300 system with a state-of-the-art CANbus system that brings enhanced error protection, self-diagnostics, and greatly enhanced insulation against interference from voltage excursions in the vessel’s power supply, and that can be achieved well below the middle of that range with careful selection, though most of the newer systems will run in the upper half of the range.


At the bottom end of the range there is very limited availability of verified used equipment, and also limited refurbishment available for broken units, though not from the manufacturer in either case.


Your trusted local yacht repair tech should be able to resource the new equipment for you easily enough, though many aren’t aware of the used and refurb options.


If anyone would like more details on the pros, cons and actual costs, I’m happy to have those conversations directly outside the forums. My email address is in my bio. For transparency, I should state here that I'm actively engaged in the business of selling and servicing propulsion control systems, so I am enthusiastic about upgrading older controls.


Jim Martyn

Alyeska 47-07

Quoted Text

Jim, thanks for sharing this information. 

Given the critical importance of a functional EC 200 control box and the fact new replacements are not available, is there another practical solution?

John Zimmerman 5359


Sent from AOL on Android

Jim, thanks for sharing this information. 

Given the critical importance of a functional EC 200 control box and the fact new replacements are not available, is there another practical solution?

John Zimmerman 

I'm following up to report more recent observed trends that necessitate revising my prior reported opinion.


Previously I was seeing EC200 failures only in those control boxes with mechanical actuator servos, but not in boxes that output exclusively electronic actuation signals (which are always digital system voltage for the shift solenoids, and analog voltage, current or PWM for throttle control.)


But more recently I'm seeing a steady pattern of failures on the late-model EC200 and subsequent EC300 all-electronic systems. For clarity I point out that determination of which system you have is not controlled by the badging on the face of the control head(s), but by the data tag on the Power Commander unit(s) located most commonly in your engine room. The EC200 control heads are sometimes used with the analog EC300 systems, but are not compatible with the later (though now also obsolete) CANbus-protocol EC300 systems. I haven't seen any failures in the EC300 CANbus systems, which is unsurprising since the CANbus architecture neatly eliminates the inherent vulnerabilities of the prior analog systems.


From discussions with operators of the affected boats I get the impression that there tends to be little-or-no warning of failure, and that these boxes are tending to fail at 12-15 years age with little apparent distinction between lightly and heavily used boats.


The best precaution that I can suggest is to have a spare preconfigured Power Commander control box on hand as insurance against extended outage. But, since there are no longer any new boxes of either EC200 or EC300 systems available anywhere for purchase, even this precaution is a bit of a gamble.



Jim Martyn

Alyeska 47-07

Quoted Text

Hi, Mark. You are correct that this issue is limited to EC200 systems that connect to mechanically-shifted transmissions and does not affect those systems without mechanical actuators, as those EC200 systems do not involve servo motors but simply send voltage signals to the shift solenoids on electronic-shift transmissions. I have not yet come across any failures of EC200 systems failing to send the appropriate voltage shift signals.

Hi, Mike.


The control box version shown in your photo is the variant for which I've been seeing the highest rate of EC200 failures. I was on the East Coast a few weeks ago replacing the same version on a tug (twin screw). The starboard control gear actuator generally fails first, followed shortly after by the port gear actuator. Most of those failures are occurring on systems at around 18-20 years age, but I'm seeing them earlier on commercial boats.


Jim Martyn

Alyeska 47-07

Quoted Text

Mark, don't know if this picture is getting through. I'll try again.


Quoted Text

Dear Jim,


As I'm crossing the Baltic Sea in rough seas, I read your post. May I call you 24/7 if I start have issues with my EC200 Twindisk?


~LC

mv Ho'okipa

S4326

Hi, LC.


The failure mode under discussion in this thread would not have the tendency to cause a shift reversal while underway, but only a failure to return to neutral at some point in time later, and even then probably only when shifting from reverse to neutral.


Hopefully your crossing was all happy and the problem never finds its way aboard Ho’okipa.


Aloha!

Jim

Quoted Text

Mike's Power Commander box is the variant of the control box that has mechanical levers for both throttle and transmission because he has a mechanical diesel. (I know because it was my boat first....). I assume that the servo/solenoids for the transmission are the same, but I don't know that for sure.

Mark Tilden




The two servos are essentially the same (in most variants of the EC200 boxes), but their gearboxes are configured for different functions. The shift servo’s zero point is in the middle of the range with 45 degrees plus and minus for forward and reverse shift. The throttle servo’s zero point is at one end of the range. Depending one the revision number of the servo PCB, the same servo version can be configured to function either as a gear or throttle servo.

John:

I'm a little unclear on your question. The electronic transmission is not really directly connected to the engine itself. You could have a TwinDisc or ZF transmission and the transmission could be electronic (i.e. solenoid shifted) or mechanically shifted. It's not directly related to the engine. I assume you mean roughly when Jet Tern started using electronically shifted transmissions?

Note that this is separate from electronic throttle control of the engine. You could have an electronic diesel (e.g. a QSL9) with a mechanically shifted transmission.

Assuming I understood your question: as a data point, I have an electronically controlled TwinDisc transmission in my 2008 Selene 59/60 (with an electronically controlled John Deere 6125 engine).

Mark Tilden
Selene 60 "Koinonia"


John my hull is 5366 from 2007 and my QSL9 has the electronic controls.

Cheers
Rob
Selene 5366 Big Smile

Rob Langford




Does anyone know the approximate year that the Cummins QSL9 went from mechanical to electronic transmission controls?

John Zimmerman 


Mike's Power Commander box is the variant of the control box that has mechanical levers for both throttle and transmission because he has a mechanical diesel. (I know because it was my boat first....). I assume that the servo/solenoids for the transmission are the same, but I don't know that for sure.

Mark Tilden



Mark, don't know if this picture is getting through. I'll try again.

Quoted Text

Mark:

I have a Power Commander with EC 200, as you probably know. But mine doesn't look like the picture that you show. Ours crapped out a couple of years ago when we were up in the Broughtons. Just pulled up a shrimp pot and were going to leave, and we couldn't get it into gear. Luckily, we had a hydraulic get-you-home, and limped back to a port. Eventually we had the unit sent back to people who made it, and they reconditioned it. Working fine ever since. Fingers crossed. See picture below.

I’d be very interested to see a picture of your different Power Commander box.


Did Twindisc refurb your unit? You’re very lucky there. I’m hearing that they’ve orphaned them.

Of course! Though I can’t guarantee that I’ll hear and answer in the middle of the night.

Mark:

I have a Power Commander with EC 200, as you probably know. But mine doesn't look like the picture that you show. Ours crapped out a couple of years ago when we were up in the Broughtons. Just pulled up a shrimp pot and were going to leave, and we couldn't get it into gear. Luckily, we had a hydraulic get-you-home, and limped back to a port. Eventually we had the unit sent back to people who made it, and they reconditioned it. Working fine ever since. Fingers crossed. See picture below.

Dear Jim,


As I'm crossing the Baltic Sea in rough seas, I read your post. May I call you 24/7 if I start have issues with my EC200 Twindisk?


~LC

mv Ho'okipa

S4326

A few readers have asked me how to identify whether they have a Power Commander control unit of the type relevant to this discussion. Here's how to verify:If you have propulsion control stations like shown in the first pic attached here, then go to your engine room and find the Power Commander control box for those EC200 controls. If that unit is like the one shown in the second pic with a gear shift lever, then you have the version that is susceptible to the same shift failure with age.

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